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Jim King Turtle
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jamie  Left-handed Welsh Git
Joined: 21 December 2002 Total posts: 13238 Location: Bishopston, Swansea, South Wales Age: 40 Gender: Male Karma: 685
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Post: #2 (ID: 115659)  Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:20 pm Karma this post: (+0 -0)
Post subject: Free Will - "God" style: a gift? |
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Nothing to do with "free will"?
Free Will - "God" style: a gift?
We are always reminded by Christians that God gave us free will. Indeed, the wrongful exercise of free will back in the Garden of Eden was what stuffed up all of creation.
But is it free will if it so closely resembles blackmail?
Is it free will when someone has a gun pointed in your face?
Theres something wrong about Gods free will, as described in the bible. It doesnt look very free. If any human parent or friend can give free will to others better than God can, then that doesnt say much for God being perfect.
It could just be that the whole thing is a bunch of bullshit designed to scare children and blame the victim.
Here are the biblical verses which I referred to and quoted, and which Im sure people are going to accuse me of having misinterpreted and taken out of context.
Rev 3:20
John 5:22
2 Timothy 4:1
Revelation 20:15
Luke 16:24
Romans 6:13
Romans 5:15
Rev 20:10 | | | Youtube video : Click here to load video ( View on the YouTube site )OptionsClose |
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Free Will - "God Style" PART 2
The script for the taxman in this video is made up of Christian's responses to my first "Free Will" video, in which I made the point that the "choice" that Jesus apparently gives us is woefully unfair, loaded, and far from "free". Basically I copy/pasted their arguments from the comments page, adapted them to a new scenario, the "choice" to pay taxes, to see if they stand up to scrutiny in a different context. You can be the judge of how they fare.
Our tax-payer friend here almost falls for it... how about you?
Part 1 here:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E
***** | | | Youtube video : Click here to load video ( View on the YouTube site )OptionsClose |
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Free Will - "God Style" PART 3; Finale
Here is the third and final installment in what turned out to be the Free Will series!
Perhaps by now youve heard it all before. The first two installments generated debates that each led to the next one being written, in order to demonstrate the illogical nature of the arguments I kept getting.
Most argumentative responses focused on words. Free and choice were bounced back and forth again and again, from dictionary to dictionary It seems that apologists for the Bible are happy to accept a choice that is almost identical to blackmail, as long as it can still bear the label choice, which, yes, blackmail does too, I guess. The other main response Ive gotten is the charge that Im angry at Yahweh for giving us such a loaded, coercive choice. Ahh no, I dont believe in Yahweh, I dont believe Yahweh has ever done anything, so Im not angry at him. Do you deny Santa because youre angry at him for not giving you presents at Christmas any more?
So, this final part is intended to acknowledge that yes, in fact, blackmail, coercion, threats, and extortion ARE categories of choice. It is focused on what KIND of choice one might expect from an infinitely capable, infinitely loving, and infinitely wise deity. If nothing else, I hope it demonstrates that the free choice that Christians praise Yahweh for is nowhere near as free or loving as what a perfect being could offer. Its more like that free choice (YES, OK, it IS a choice!!!) given by the store robber pointing the gun at the guy behind the counter and demanding that he hand over the cash. Therefore, if we follow logic (ahem) we come to the predicament of acknowledging that Yahwehs choice doesnt measure up to anything LIKE being worthy of being credited to the divine, in fact it fails dismally, and therefore, the whole damn thing is a bunch of bullshit.
Do you find this video offensive? Well, Im offended that throughout history, and even still today, people have been, and are being, paralysed with fear of being condemned to an imaginary torture chamber after death- indoctrinated from childhood that they need to grovel and beg for mercy, and that nothing they can humanly do can save them from endless pain and suffering. Im offended that people I know, love and respect have had these bullshit ideas put into their heads, and had it influence their choices ALL their lives, constantly weighing their thoughts and actions against the need to please the imaginary slave master who alone can rescue them from the imaginary torture that he himself threatens to dole out.
An honorary mention will go to the first person to make a comment claiming that I am angry at God.
Another honorary mention will go to the first person to make a comment saying that Im saying theres no choice in Yahwehs arrangement when in fact, in a dictionary sense, there actually is.
And a third honorary mention will go to the first person to try to correct my position by quoting a merciful-sounding bible verse, whilst ignoring all the bloodthirsty, torture filled ones about Jesus judging us and sending us to hell. | | | Youtube video : Click here to load video ( View on the YouTube site )OptionsClose |
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How amazing is God's Forgiveness? Not very.
God established the physical laws of the universe, then some moral laws. And decided that the penalty for disobedience would be death, and that he would not forgive any transgression at all.
But he didn't like the outcome. Everybody deserved to die.
So rather than just forgiving, like any decent human being could do, he decided that he really wanted someone to die, so he murdered someone who didn't deserve it, which made him happy, so now he can forgive us, and we are meant to thank him for it.
Christians like to be amazed at God's power to save us. And to be eternally grateful for saving us.
But he's only saving us from himself. Are we meant to be grateful for God just not changing his mind, but insisting instead that he gets a death sentence?
He sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself. We are meant to view it as mercy, when what it really is is stubborn obstinance, and, rather an absolute UNwillingness to forgive. There had to be death. Coz God said so.
It is ridiculous and this video is an analogy of this amazingly rigid and bizarre rules-punishment-"mercy" mock-up. | | | Youtube video : Click here to load video ( View on the YouTube site )OptionsClose |
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JimKing Turtle
Karma: -252
Karma yesterday, day before: -252, -252
Gallery Entries : 160
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Post: #3 (ID: 115667) Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:50 pm Karma this post: (+0 -0)
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That's as bad as the religious fundamentalists arguments! Their arguments are utterly illogical regarding the concept of free will.
_________________
Sed mulier cupido quod dicit amanti
In vento et rapida scribere oportet aqua.
Catullus 70
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